Danay's Domain - Race and Language

Category Role-Playing (4)
Topic RP: Tips, Slips, And Near Misses (6)
Message Tips: Race, Language and RP (727)
By OBSESSION@PLAY.NET (Danay)
On Aug 21, 2000 at 10:20

I thought I would toss this out there with some of my observations and thoughts. It is something I have thought about at various times because of various things that have come up in the game, and a little thing that happened last night sorta spurred me on to write this.

Some people make little use of languages in the game except for where convenient, such as switching to guild in a busy room. Some people make a lot of use of languages, but don't think it through. They know which ones are available to their character and simply use them. Some make beautiful use of languages that is seamless and well thought out for their character.

The main point that I want to try and make is, YOU decide which languages your character knows and speaks, not the game mechanics. (Well, I mean aside from, you can't have your giant pretend to understand halfling when it's spoken or you will fall flat on your face.) Think about who your character is, how they were brought up, what is important to them, and their attitudes about the various languages available to you through the game mechanics. THEN decide how your character speaks and when.

First I will start with examples from my own characters. Danay is a half-elf, but she was raised in a traditional elven household. Her father was human, but spoke fluent elven. Elven is Danay's native tongue, though she speaks common just as well since she also learned it from the time she was a toddler. Danay prefers to speak in elven, and will do so at every opportunity. (Though I admit that I frequently flub as a player and forget to switch to elven when I should.) Danay considers half-elven a bastard/pidgin tongue and would never deign to speak it, though she can understand it usually. She does not really like using guild speak since she considers it stiff and too businesslike, but will use it under extreme conditions or to joke around.

My rogue is a dark elf. She knows and can speak dark elven, but she is more comfortable speaking Common since she grew up on the streets of the Landing and that is the language she has used the most. She also really likes speaking guild with other rogues. She has no language hangups/dislikes, just natural preferences.

My warrior is only level 5 and I am still doing a lot of work on her as far as character development goes and doing work on me to get into the habits I need to play her. She's from Ta'Vaalor. I am trying to get into the habit of her speaking elven almost exclusively and only switching to Common when she has to. A Vaalor elf would consider the human tongue as way beneath her. I am also trying to have her speak slightly different in Common and in elven. Not accent really, but how she uses words, contractions, etc. It's not something that most people would pick up on when talking to her, but sometimes it's those subtle things that make your character more real. It's something I have to be conscious of all the time and is taking a lot of training for me as a player.

So the above examples are all different ways that I have tried to incorporate languages into my characters. Now I want to give examples from other things that I have run across in my playing so that people can see there are also other issues to consider. Erm, well....now that I am finally writing this, I can only think of two, and they both have to do with half-elven characters.

When playing a half-elven character you need to give some special thought to the issue of speaking half-elven as a language. Half-elves are not a race, they are the product of an elf and a human having a child. They are a singular incidence, not a people with a language and culture of their own. Your character background will determine language for you.

If you were raised in a human environment Common will most likely be your primary tongue. It might be your ONLY language you know. Just because game mechanics dictate that you can understand elven, it may not make any sense for your character to understand or speak elven. The reverse could also be true where your background may make Common a language that is foreign to you. It's something you should decide based on your character, not the game mechanics.

When it comes to speaking/understanding half-elven, your background is just as or more important. I figure half-elven is sort of a mishmash between human and elven. (Note: GM's have admitted that there should have been no half-elven language, that it was a mistake in the change over from ICE.) If your character was raised in a home where maybe the elf parent didn't speak common very well and the human parent didn't speak elven very well, it would be reasonable that your character ends up speaking a weird mix of the two languages, that in game mechanics would be half-elven. On the other hand, if your character was raised in a single race home or a home where the parents knew both languages well, it would make no sense.

I will give an example of two half-elven characters I knew. One time they were speaking half-elven so that my character wouldn't understand what was being said. :) But, when examined closely, that made no sense. One of those characters was raised in a pure elven home, in a home where the mother was eventually murdered because she protected the identity of the human father. The human contact and child were a disgrace. A child from such a family would NOT speak half-elven simply because she would have never been exposed to anything like it. That family would have only spoken elven in the home.

The other character on the other hand was raised in a home with an elven parent and a human parent both resident. It could make sense for her to speak some sort of mix of the two languages with that upbringing. Though again, the player would have to decide for herself if it really fit or not.

The other thing, the one I ran across last night, was people commenting on Danay speaking elven. An elven character Danay hadn't met before commented that Danay speaks elven very well. Danay pointed out it is her native tongue. BTW, I thought that was neat for that other player to pick up on Danay's race and the fact that she was speaking elven. I love running into people who don't just take those things for granted because of how game mechanics work but RP around them.

Another fellow though, commented that all half-elves can speak elven. Think about that. It's true from a game mechanics perspective, but it would not be true in a real sense. If a half-elf was raised within the human empire it's entirely possible they never learned to speak elven. The reverse could also be true, if raised only among elves, they may have never learned to speak human. Though that is less likely since human is the common or trade language. When Danay said something about that not always being true, the fellow then said sure, but half-elves have an easier time learning elven. I don't believe that is true either. I don't think there is any genetic disposition to learn any particular tongue, either on Earth or in Elanthia.

It's rather unfortunate that our hands are tied by mechanics so that we can't take some of these things a step farther. Some people play giants who were raised by halflings, elves raised by dwarves, etc, etc. Those are great RP choices. Logically if a giant was raised by halflings, the giant would speak halfling fluently. But game mechanics don't allow that, causing you think of some way to work around it.

So to sum up, using languages is a great way to enchance RP and to make a statement about your character. The statement may even be a subtle one, never actually said, but it's still there and still helps color your character. When using languages in the game, think about your character and what makes sense for who they are and use that information rather than what's available to you just because of the race you picked in the mangler. You will find that your character will become much more believable and real.

Robin

Category Role-Playing (4)
Topic Thoughts on Role-Playing (4)
Message Re: Personal History (6972)
By OBSESSION@PLAY.NET (Danay)
On Feb 18, 2001 at 11:23

Are there "rogue" dark elves out there? Ones that don't claim to be either Dhe'nar or Faendryl? I ask this because I continue to get the feeling that dark elves should be played in a certain manner. Arrogant, self absorbed purists that feel that their race (elvenkind) is the only real intellegent race out there. An no matter how many times I try, I just can't seem to bring myself to play a character like that.

First of all, I wouldn't even worry about the Dhe'Nar. You would have needed to specifically create your character to have a background and history associated with them. They split off from elves long, long before the Faendryl split and have a totally separate history. So I would say just worry about Faendryl/dark elven history.

Second of all, the beauty of stereotypes for RP is that you can embrace them or break them. Both are very acceptable in creating your character. The important part is just being aware of which one it is you are doing and why. In your case, your background is going to dictate which, if any, you embrace. Maybe he has the natural affinity for magic and even a bit of the haughtiness, but not the sense of racial superiority. If people call him on it and say he isn't like his kind, there's your chance to talk about being raised by humans, etc.

My dark elven character is not in tune with her racial heritage at all. She prefers Common to the elven languages because, growing up in the Landing, that's what she spoke most of the time. She has what I consider to be an almost innate acceptance of dark elves being superior, but it's not something she concentrates on or even thinks or talks about much. It's there, but not on the surface. Because of growing up in the Landing, she's a lot more accepting of other races than my other elven characters are, while still "knowing" that elves are best. (My elf from Ta'Vaalor is still totally bewildered by all the races being on as good of terms as they are in the Landing.) The dark elf is very ignorant about Faendryl history because of her lack of schooling and upbringing. (From a very low class family that was concerned with survival, not racial politics, etc.)

The thing is, I specifically picked dark elf for RP reasons, because I felt it would suit her best. But in her case, her race is the canvas, not the painting. So that was a longwinded way to say that there's nothing wrong with going against stereotype, they are made to be broken. Just have a good understanding of what they are and why your character breaks them.

Robin

Category Role-Playing (4)
Topic Conflict! (2)
Message Re: Halfling Harrassment (8985)
By OBSESSION@PLAY.NET (Danay)
On Mar 1, 2001 at 14:16

I'm posting on this board because I think this most aptly fits conflict.

There seems to be an attitude going about the lands that halflings are a lesser species. Many people make fun of them, degrade them and call them edible. Now I realize that since we don't (well, most of us I hope)actively practive prejudice in the real world that some feel it is allowable in this. This is more a concern than an actual pointing of fingers, but I know people who are getting berated to a point that this particular role-play is no longer fun. Would you purposely enter an environment where everyone denegrates you?

My question is: where is the line? At what point does this racial superiority mostly enjoyed by dark elves become a detriment to our Elanthian society? Should a young halfling have to move OUT OF CHARACTER to deal with this? If you're normally friendly and well liked by your entire community, should you be forced to either put up with harrassment (thus ruining your enjoyment) or should you go out of character to deal with it?

Redowyn, friend to halflings everywhere

Good topic Redowyn. So far all of my characters are rather ambivalent about halflings. They don't dislike them, just aren't quite sure what to make of them most of the time. I do sort of think of halflings as being very different from the other races. But as a player I do not in any way think of it as lesser. (Character opinions vary of course.)

I do think there's a fine line between interesting RP and making someone else miserable. I think that racial tensions are a very interesting aspect of the game and embrace that aspect. But like most things, it really needs to be done in moderation.

I will even go out on a limb and say that constant/frequent harping on a racial issue really isn't very good RP. It becomes very old and tired very quickly. An occasional comment that illustrates a character's views on the races I think is much more effective than running it into the ground. The same can be said of some of the religious conflicts.

I do think that players should be aware of how their behavior is affecting others. I have heard players of halflings talk about this before. I don't personally have any interest in playing a halfling as a regular ongoing character, but I enjoy people who do have fun with it. Sunny was one of my favorite hobbits. It's like anything in the real world, you can brush off occasional comments or incidents. But if it's something that you cosntantly deal with, something people are often in your face about, it really wears you down psychologically. I can see why the same thing would be true within the game.

So I guess I am just rambling on to say that I think people who play characters that have negative views about halflings, or any rac,e really need to pause and think about how much is too much. The idea is to enhance interactions, not ruin someone's fun. Moderation in all things.

Robin

Category Role-Playing (4)
Topic Conflict! (2) Message
Re: Halfling Harrassment (8950)
By ZILAL@PLAY.NET (Free the Fifth!)
On Mar 1, 2001 at 02:48

This is a problem that's bugged me for a long time, and one I don't think you can really understand unless you've had to deal with it. As Redowyn said, when you're constantly being put down the RP stops being fun. This is not a joke. Wake up and smell the coffee.

The last gaming convention I went to, I joined a particular tabletop RP session. During the session, another player (or character, if you like) berated mine after nearly everything I said. Every suggestion I made was stupid, idiotic. I was an incompetent moron. I couldn't do my job. I was a worthless coward. I mean my character, of course. During the break I told him it was bothering me. He responded with something along the lines of "Jeez, lighten up, it's only roleplaying." After the break was over, his venom returned in full force.

This is not a fun thing. It scarcely mattered that I was playing a role. By the end of my tabletop session I wasn't participating at all. Why bother? Why bother to participate if my character's going to be continually insulted, denied and ignored? Why would I want to roleplay that?

And I have some serious questions about the RP value of halfling-racism. I can count on one hand the number of times I've seen it add anything of value to a character. With some exceptions it's monkey see, monkey do, no thought given to character depth. And certainly none to the players on the other end.

Another anecdote. I did a wonderful exercise once wherein we each wore a card on our foreheads, with a label. Jock. Homecoming queen. Straight-A student. Nerd. Et cetera. We were instructed to treat each other as those types were treated. No one knew what their own card said. A popular, cheerful student was designated the nerd. She started off her brilliant self. Not half an hour in, she was slumped mute in her chair, staring at the floor. Didn't matter that we were playing a game. It sucks to be constantly put down.

I've toned down my negative references to halflings. (I make fun of every race, after all.) Not all the players of halflings are bothered, but by far enough. Constant denigration isn't a joke. I'm disgusted by the number of posters responding so dismissively to a serious post.

Racism is fine. This particular brand is old and stale. It's like a broken record. Of Kenny G. This is *not* fun for people. Cut it out, tone it down, I don't care; just listen to and respect your fellow players.

Category Role-Playing (4)
Topic Thoughts on Role-Playing (4)
Message Re: Where to Roleplay (10868)
By ZILAL@PLAY.NET (Itchy)
On Jul 17, 2001 at 13:59

Kristin, I think everyone who's posted about the halfling-eating thing agrees that Witcheaven goes about it the right way, with reasons for it, rather than simply parrotting what everyone else says. Many of us said as much plainly as we could. No one's taking shots at you. :)

Welcome to racism.

Racism is a wonderful RP tool, but racism does not equal RP. What's unfortunate is that large numbers of people seem to think it does.

Racism that is grounded in the personality of the character, that has reasons, that is part of the character's development, that is expressed in a fashion that welcomes the participation of its targets, that is meant to entertain and draw others in rather than shut them out... is good RP.

Racism that has no basis in the personality of the character, has no reasons or place in the character's development, that exists for no discernable reason other than that everyone else is doing it, that is expressed in a fashion that makes its targets props or punchlines of jokes rather than active participants in the roleplay -- and that persists despite the fact that it creates a frustrating rather than enriching roleplaying environment for other players of the game -- is poor RP.

That's all.

Category Role-Playing (4)
Topic Thoughts on Role-Playing (4)
By SALIM from PLAY.NET
On Apr 18, 2002 at 21:19
Subject Re: Race diversity, racism, prejudice, barriers, are all good role play. (20280)

Sounds Like fun, I recently started playing a dwarf that doesn't speak common and had a rough time not knowing what was going on until I started playing with highlights. I highlighted "says," "asks," and "exclaims," in black then I choose highlight to entire the entire line.

The results were great. I knew when people were talking, but had no idea what they were saying. I also can't understand any of the npcs in the landing. It's great! I'd recomend this to anyone interested in playing a character that doesn't speak common. Although I did highlight my name so it stick out like a sore thumb when others are talking about me. that way I can peer at them, or start blabbing at them in dwarven.

Salim

Category Role-Playing (4)
Topic Thoughts on Role-Playing (4)
By JSEVERNS from PLAY.NET (Mnar)
On Apr 26, 2002 at 16:46
Subject How to play a Dhe'nari Character w/o the Tower (Secrets Revealed!) (20614)

Throughout this series of threads has been a pervasive theme; the Dhe'nar don't mind if you play a Dhe'nari character outside the Tower, but there's no way of knowing how to play a character without joining the Tower. There is a de facto barrier to non-Tower Dhe'nar.

Hopefully, this post will clear these problems up. As an aside, the things mentioned in this post are merely suggestions, based upon Mnar's experience as a Dhe'nari character, and do not necessarily represent the views of the Tower or of Simutronics.

Some basic guidelines regarding a Dhe'nari character:

First, most Dhe'nar are not wanderers; the Dhe'nar hail from a rather strict caste-style society that discourages vagrancy. Therefore, most Dhe'nar who show up in one of the towns in Gemstone will either be a) Outcasts, b) On a Quest/Mission, or c) Older, established Dhe'nar who have discharged their duties to their caste and are free to seek power however they choose, mostly Warlocks or Witches (Starsnuffer, Gryphon, Celtic would fall into this catagory).

If you're a vagrant, don't expect much love from the Tower. You will probably be tolerated, maybe even dealt with in a positive fashion if you have something to offer. However, there's always the possibility you will be seen as a nuisance or pest, particularly if you go out of your way to annoy people.

If you're on a quest, you're in luck. Although they don't seem like friendly people, most Dhe'nar are quite willing to help one of their own, particularly if their on a mission for their own particular caste. Be sure to make it clear that you are allowed to accept help on your quest, and be VERY sure to make it clear that you are on a QUEST, not a TASK. Tasks are an individual undertaking, and to seek help to complete one is a failing. Note: By assist, I mean engage your character in an on-going roleplaying situation, not give you spells and neat equipment.

Chances are, no new character is going to show up claiming to be a part of group C.

Second, demeanor. This is mostly a personal thing, and you'll see a wide range of personality types among the Dhe'nar. Some are very standoffish and elitist (Wyseth), while others are a bit more personable and diplomatic (Mnar). However, even the nicest Dhe'nar will rarely suffer fools gladly, and the bubbly-giggly halfling-style persona that is so popular these days would be wildly out of character.

Young Dhe'nar are rather idealistic, having been raised on the teachings of their elders. As they age, a sense of anomie begins to set in among them, as they realize much of what they have been taught cannot be realized. This affects the Priesthood and the Magi more than the Warriors, who--for the most part--have a bit more of a practical view of the world, and suffer neither from the rampant idealism of youth or the cynicim of age.

Third, Castes. Dhe'nar fall into two broad catagories, peasantry and nobility. The Peasantry makes up the vast majority of Dhe'nar culture, probably 90-95% of the population. They are the farmers, merchants, cobblers, smiths, laborers, ect... All the people needed to run a country. The nobility are typically selected at a young age, and join one of three Castes.

Warriors (warriors, rogues, rangers): The lowest of the castes, the Warriors are charged with leading the Dhe'nari Armies and protecting members of the other two castes (who, according to the warriors, have their heads in the clouds). Warriors tend to be sensible, practical individuals who are aware of the world around them. The Warrior caste is led by the Warlord, who rarely has any power outside of his caste except in times of war.

Priesthood (Sorcerers, Priests, Empaths [painstealers]): The priests are charged with keeping the traditions of the Dhe'nar alive, as well as controlling breeding among members of the nobility to keep the race pure. They interpret the law as handed down by Noi'Sho'Rah. They are, in the Landing, the most common Dhe'nar, and for the past four thousand years have held the upper-hand in Dhe'nari politics. They work (or scheme, if you prefer) together better than either of the other two castes. Their political rivals are the

Magi: Composed of either Warlocks (male wizards), Witches (female wizards), or Lorekeepers (male or female, any class, typically bards). They have no 'defined' duties, but tend to focus on occult research and various methods of using and honing their powers. Few in number, they are unquestionably the most powerful individuals among the Dhe'nar, and have been responsible over the years for a wide variety of catastrophies--most of which could have been avoided with a little common sense (e.g. "The Forging of Swallow", "The Stareater"). Magi do not, as a rule, work well together, and this has been the cause for their recent loss of prestige compared to the Priesthood.

Goals: Dhe'nar tend to have two major goals in their lives; contribute to their caste, and accumulate personal power. Warriors emphasize the former over the latter, while Magi prefer the latter over the former. Priests manage to strike a nice balance between personal and caste glory.

Philosophy: Dhe'nari philosophy is based upon the Way, a series of teachings that stem from the original teachings of Noi'Sho'Rah and Tahlad, which were allegedly handed down to them by the Gods. A somewhat complete treatise on the Way can be obtained at the Dhe'nari website, http://www.lordceltic.com/Dhenar/theway.html

Language: Here's the big one, the thing that so many people have been claiming keeps them from playing a Dhe'nari character. In reality, there's only a few words you need for most interactions, and extended conversations in Dhe'nar-si are rare, unless we want to communicate without being understood (much like empaths). Here's all the Dhe'nar-si you need to play a convincing character.

Kris har'esh--Walk with Power. Used as both a greeting and a dismissal. Note, it does not mean "Walk Powerfully", but rather Walk with Power, as though Power were a companion or object you possessed.

Okshi'i--See you soon (colloquial). Less formal than Kris har'esh. Used among friends.

Sha'haisa--Thank you.

Shodom--You're Welcome (literally, "It is nothing").

Kushodom--You're not welcome. No real equivalent in common, not as impolite as it sounds. Simply signifies that an individual understands he is owed a debt by the person he helped, whereas the term Shodom usually nullifies that debt. If you loan someone a million silvers, they thank you, and you respond with Shodom, you might not get your money back.

Q'halae--Student (literally, slave/animal). The -ae suffix indicates the plural. Q'hali is a male student, while Q'hala is female. Unlike common, the female suffix is the neuter gender, and a random individual of indeterminate sex among a mixed-sex group is usually refered to in the female.

Sho'nah/Sho'rah--Brother/Sister. Used colloquially with any Dhe'nari noble.

Shorn'ri--Cousin, typically refering to an elf or (rarely) half-elf accepted among the Dhe'nar.

Umesha'i/a--Ally, usually non-Dhe'nar.

Eii--Yes. Ku--No. Used very rarely, almost always as a prefix rather than as a stand-alone word.

Su'u--Another form of Yes.

Su'a--Yet another form of Yes.

Sho la nei? -- How are you?

Ah--And.

Dhu/Mhe--You/Me.

Obviously, there are many other words in Dhe'nar-si, however the ones listed above are the usually the only ones that get mentioned in casual conversation.

If you can't create a stand-alone Dhe'nari character with the information on our Website, as well as the information listed above, you are beyond my ability to help. Good luck.

-Mnar's player

Category Quests, Sagas, and Events (6)
Topic Hot Summer Nights 2002 (31)
By DARKMAGE from PLAY.NET (Starsnuffer)
On May 30, 2002 at 22:39
Subject Re: Coupla Things (1390)

I hear a lot of complaints about being "pushed into a stereotype", but what I hardly ever see are well played stereotypes. I think it is very important for every culture to have well played characters who really show what the cultures can do within the bounds of the culture before those lines have to be stretched and broken.

How many really well played Faendryl are there (Besides Silvean and Lylia)? How many well played Bear Clan giantmen? What I mean by that is characters that are true to the cultures nature as currently written. I have nothing against creativity and originality, of that you can be certian, but I really think that the archetypes could use to be filled out much more before playing a "stereotype" becomes less then the challenge it currently is.

-Starsnuffer

Category Role-Playing (4)
Topic Thoughts on Role-Playing (4)
By CLAIRELROJ from PLAY.NET
On Jun 27, 2002 at 18:49
Subject Re: Culturally motivated speech (21828)

The only problem with this technique is that it becomes increasingly difficult to discern when others are speaking -- or more importantly, speaking to You.

I had a character who only spoke/understood elven for a while, and I figured out a way to highlight all the words from says to the end of whatever they said in my background color, leaving me with just their name floating there as an indication that they'd spoken. I then highlighted my name a different color over that, so that it would still show up. I found it very helpful.

To do that, at least with the old Mac front end (no idea if this works in anything else). . .go to the Strings section of "Highlight Strings" and add "says,", "asks,", and "exclaims,". Select "Highlight entire line" for each string, and color them to match your background. Then, if there are names or place names that you want to be able to see through that, highlight them a different color in the "Names" section of "Hightlight Strings" and they'll show up.

One way to handle it, anyways.

Category Quests, Sagas, and Events (6)
Topic Hot Summer Nights 2002 (31)
By VALTHRAE from PLAY.NET (Just a slip of a sorceress)
On Jul 26, 2002 at 12:48
Subject Elven Aging (4836)

Disclaimer: These are my opinions only. They are not the "One True Way." Please add "in my opinion" or "this is just something to think about" to any sentence that makes you think I'm trying to tell you how to RP your character.

I see a lot of people with comments about how "my elf is only twenty years old!" and concerns about backstories/novels they have written for their characters. I had a bit of a problem too, but then realized something...

Elves don't live through time as other races do.

Last night I watched the movie "Kate & Leopold." In it, Kate asks Leopold if he misses where he came from (the 1800's.) He said what he missed was the rhythm of his "home time." That is, the slowness of it.

Or any of you see Star Trek: Resurrection? Picard is told that students take twenty-five years to become *apprentices.*

My personal history for my bard covered (up until yesterday) about 25 years or so. How could I resolve that? I needed to come up with *at minimum* seventy five years of personal history. There was no WAY I could do that. So, instead of being in Ta'Faendryl for 15 years... she was there for 90 years. But accomplished things and had experiences at a *much* slower pace.

Isn't that one of the qualities of elves that we should work toward bringing into our RP? Their age giving them a 'timeless' quality to their personality? Instead of gazing at a rose for sixty seconds like a human would, they study it for weeks. Instead of a six month courtship, they have six year courtships. What's the rush? Change comes very slowly to the elves.

I think this can be something that can *really* enrich the differences between the races and definitely make elves a "breed apart." Think about an elf that makes a friend who is a human and the elf *knows* that the human will die before they can barely blink their eyes. Elves live almost forty times as long as humans, twenty five times as long as halflings and giantkin, and about eight times as long as dwarves. (I'm not going to get into detail in the half-elf thing - but it can definitely be another bone of contention between half-elves and pure elves.)

Try not to see this from a Real Life standpoint of "Rush, rush, rush through life." If you play an Elven character, slow down. If you have a history that says they were such and such place for 20 years, make it 200 hundred years. 'But doesn't that make them stupid? Takes them 40 years to learn something a human learns in one?' No, not at all! Slow doesn't mean stupid. It means they feel no need to rush through their lives headlong like a human would. Humans don't have the *time* to take 2 years to read a book, elves do.

Try not to let the hurry of modern life affect the life of your elven character in this magical world.

Somebody's Slowing Down Wheels

2/3/04 Dark Elf Folder

I think that if you aren't going to play into the culture, then don't choose it as your culture. You aren't of the Dhe'nar culture. You are just of the Dhe'nar bloodline.

This is a good point. The cultural choices are just that...cultural. I don't think they're meant to represent a subrace that would be apparant to an observer based on physical characteristics alone. Instead they represent the other trappings of a cultural identity, from clothing and mannerisms to attitudes and belief systems. I'm not sure it's entirely consistant to pick a cultural identity and then choose not to adopt any of the aspects that actually make it a identifiable culture.

Although if this perspective were entirely true, one's available cultural identities wouldn't be restricted by race; if a human grew up in Ta'Vaalor then they should be able to set that as their cultural identity.

Saltstone

No one truly exhibits a stereotype in every way. That's why you can't give someone the once over and honestly expect to be able to detail their past, present and future. That said, I think it's important to point out that the history documents are, to my understanding, there to give a player a sense of the history of the lands and races, including the "typical" Dhe'nar. However, with many of the character histories and practices that are around, the Dhe'nar that are being played are far from typical-- so far from typical that the character seems hollow based on the history. I suppose what I'm trying to get at is that I believe it's perfectly acceptable to play a character that doesn't simply follow all of the personality implications in the history documents... however, I also believe that not EVERY trait would be different from those "typical" Dhe'nar. Moderation. A giggling Dhe'nar wearing bright blindingly pink gem adorned snazzy-pants (how's THAT for an alter? ;)) that runs around screaming "give me more tarts!" may be... uh... unique... but it is also completely unbelievable when taken in light of the cultural history, regardless of what crazy events that character may have to "explain" such odd behaviors. However, slipping in a few, more subtle irregularities to a character can give it more depth than either just following the history implications word-for-word or creating the "anti-Dhe'nar."

-Joanna, writing with Mesaphe in mind

2/2/04 Sylvan Folder

I've been slowly forming the opinion lately that many, probably most, of the sylphs have been assimilating themselves into "civilization." Yes, they'll dress in green or have jade and ivy everywhere, but the general trend is to adopt the culture of the cities.

Everything in the documents tells me that the sylvan have very little impact on the forest around them. That leads me to believe that the sylvan find a use for pretty much everything and waste little. This is not a culture where people are dressing in silks or even linen.

If we have to shoot deer for food, why not use their hides as well? It would makes sense, at least to me, that many things crafted by the sylvan are made from doeskin, buckskin, or leathers of other sorts. Likewise, feathers found in the forest or from birds that might be shot for food can be used for fletchings as well as decoration.

Dyes would be natural in origin, whether from berries, sap, herbs, roots, or what have you. Sometimes, some grasses could be pulled and woven together when there's not enough leather to be used or for aesthetic reasons.

Ivy dies, so it's not very practical in its natural form to be used for clothing. Same goes for flowers. They die very quickly when picked, so it's much better to let it grow and enjoy its beauty for a longer time.

I don't see much jade, either, though a piece here or there is possible, due to trade. Similar could be said about metal jewelry in general. One or two pieces is feasible because of trade with other cultures, not being covered in gold, silver, gemstones or the like.

Just a few things running through my mind at the moment. Anyone else agree, disagree or think I'm completely nuts? (No, you can't say I'm nuts just because you can.)

Nilandia and her demon

Just a few things running through my mind at the moment. Anyone else agree, disagree or think I'm completely nuts?

You're still nuts, despite the excellent post.

Actually, Eklinaar has developed a bit of a reputation for criticizing Sylvans he meets for being too "human", and I, the player, think most Sylvan characters are definitely "urbanized". This would make sense, really, considering that adventuring Sylvans are most likely not your typical Sylph.

As for a normal Sylph, and I consider Eklinaar to be rather conservative when it comes to being a Sylvan, I've tried to dress Eklinaar practically. Everything Eklinaar wears serves a purpose, some things serve multiple purposes. He carries nothing extraneous. His clothes are made of leather or hide, though the materials aren't actually stated in most of his descriptions. A couple of other things are items he's picked up since leaving the forests which serve very practical purposes, such as his oilcloth cloak (very useful for the rainy Solhaven climate) and his mithril-bound scroll satchel.

As for coloration, he wears all simple greens and browns. The original color of his pants and herb pouch can't possibly be determined, because they've been permanently stained by frequent treks through mud and dirt, and the herb kit is stained by various juices.

He's always prepared, carrying an herb kit with herbs to stop bleeding wounds, as well as a little bit of food and drink, at all times. He always has a knife, even though he doesn't skin and isn't trained in OHE. I've carried a pocketknife with me every single day since I was 13, and I can't count the number of times it's saved the day. Eklinaar is a skilled climber (20 ranks) and a moderate swimmer (5 ranks), and I'm working on learning foraging locations for common and particularly useful rare herbs.

Eklinaar's clothes aren't pretty, but that's because he's a bit of a loner and doesn't have the resources to keep his items in top shape. Just because Sylvans are a practical people doesn't mean they are an ugly people. I'd imagine that Sylvans in an actual Sylvan community would have much more elegant clothing, possessing a very simple beauty, a very subtle elegance. I have a robe which Eklinaar wears on formal occasions that I think fits this description.

>a simple grey robe
>The robe is of a simple design, yet clearly displays fine craftmanship. The proportions of the robe are geometrically pleasing and the measurements accentuate the natural beauty of the humanoid form. The hue of the robe matches the color of an overcast grey daytime sky. The cascading folds in the soft, thin fabric mimic the varying light and dark of shadows at the bottom of a clear stream.

Whenever I see a Sylph running around wearing fancy clothes and lots of jewelry, I and Eklinaar both automatically assume they have been "urbanized". I've discovered that this is, in fact, often the case. While I'd certainly love to see more "traditional" Sylvans running around, I don't consider it unusual in the slightest that most adventuring Sylvans aren't traditional.

Now, something for another thread that I'd like to discuss some time is: what would be considered "formal" dress or "ceremonial" dress for Sylvans?

-Eklinaar's player

I see them as much more mystical and much less on the order of Native American Indians.

I'm having trouble wrapping my mind around this statement. Having studied Native American Religion (and every major world religion, too), I would argue that the American Indians are perhaps the most mystical set of cultures on the planet. This is why I find their cultures best suited as resources for Sylvan culture, because I agree that the Sylvans are a mystical people.

Mysticism, utility, and simplicity go hand in hand. While the Sylvans are certainly far more technologically advanced than American Indians (extensive writing, advanced architecture, metallurgy, not to mention magic), technological advancement is not mutually exclusive with American Indian style resourcefulness and practicality. (Since this is starting to lean towards my field of specialty in my studies of religion, I'll stop now for fear of getting horribly off topic.)

Having said that, I'd like to emphasize a point Nilandia made.

Course, it does depend on RP and the character's background. Not every Sylvan community is the same, so while one might use leather and deerskin for clothing (armor for hunters), others could use linen and cotton.

Oh, definitely not primitive. I just meant that they draw on what's around them for their materials. I never meant to say that dressing in leather would be primitive.

Keep in mind that while the Sylvans are still a mystical people with deep ties to the world around them, they built cities. Think about that. No culture in human history has ever built a city of the size of Yuriquen that had so little impact on the surrounding ecosystem (of course, if they had, we wouldn't know about it, because there'd be no trace of it left!). In every human culture, with the exception of the Central American civilizations (Inca, Maya, Aztec), the building of the first city (or the invention of the plow, but both usually happen around the same time) coincides with a dramatic shift in thought paradigms regarding the people's relation to world around them. Somehow, the Sylvans avoid this paradigm shift, perhaps because they never invented a plow.

Has anyone really considered how this city would work? Perhaps our Sylvan guru GM has, but I know I really haven't. What are the cultural and religious implications of the fact that the Sylvans are capable of building a city, yet still maintain the trademark Sylvan worldview? I'd imagine that, much like humans, you'd find rather distinct differences between urban Sylvans (Sylvans from Yuriquen or other relatively large Sylvan settlements) and rural Sylvans (Sylvans from very small communities, like Eklinaar, or isolated communities). Rural Sylvans, depending on their isolation from other Sylvan communities, would probably have much less to trade, having to rely more on readily available resources for clothing, thus would wear more leathers and furs and less woven cloth. Sylvan communities with larger populations, easier access to other Sylvan communities, and more exposure to outside cultures would probably have a greater supply of cloth.

The important thing to remember is that Sylvans, like the American Indians, most frequently use the resources that are most readily available. If there is no supply of cloth, they'll wear leather. If it's easier to simply trade herbs and bows for cloth with a nearby Elven village than to manufacture leather, you'll see a lot more cloth in their dress. I think this is partly what Nilandia meant by commenting on the lack of fur and leather in Sylvan PC dress.

-Eklinaar's player

2/3/03 by Iscikella

My ideas about sylvans are more based on an idea of a magical connection to Nature. I have never found it easy to explain to anyone, though the documenation that came out wound up very much as I imagined sylvan culture to be for all the years I've been playing.

For instance, sylvans have a sort of actual physical attachment to the essence of the forest itself. Several instances (most notably Yuriqen legend, but also the late event of the Black Glade) forward sylvans as actually feeling the "pain" of trees that are tormented (by fire, magic, etc), and of even dying when the trees of the forest they inhabit are diseased.

I see sylvans as able to use the knowledge granted by this special connection to do things others perhaps cannot. I see them finding ways to make cloth from the fibers of plants others would not have a clue how to harvest for such. (And I would love for there to be in Elanthia special sylvan cloths like this, made of the fibers of leaves, flowers, roots. Not everything in Elanthia has to be akin to something we know here on Earth.)

I also don't view sylvans as much meat-eaters, thus I don't see them really as hunters. Therefore using skins would be kind of out-of-place. I believe they learned bowmanship as a form of self-protection, so not saying they would never kill an animal. But then again, according to the halfling history, sylvans have magic to keep animals away from their settlements, so I wouldn't see them killing an animal very often to be honest. However, I do see them as killing "unnatural" things -- such as the undead that they fought in the Despana Wars and the demons that came forward from the Faendryl summoning, and perhaps individuals even gaining a reputation for doing so. (Like Oriahn courageously setting off to destroy the demon that was near Nevishrim in the history and basically becoming forever a sylvan hero.)

I do see them as gatherers of natural bounty -- nuts, tree-fruits, roots, etc. I see them doing things like grinding nuts to make nut meal flour. Not corn, not wheat, etc, but something already available in the forest.

I believe firmly in the idea of sylvans being able to invoke a "communal mind" when necessary (which is why there is no such thing as power struggles in a sylvan community to my way of thinking). The fact given out in the sylvan document that hierophantic "talent" is sought very early in sylvan youth (between the ages of five and fifteen according to the history) supports this in my view. And I also believe that a hierophant can be imbued with the knowledge of past ages (as the documentation hints), but that such imbuement of past knowledge comes directly from the connection to the forest since a hierophant would be more closely attuned than even other sylvans.

I honestly do see communal sylvans as very isolationist, more in tune with the forest than with other form of humanoid life. I see them as having heightened senses -- in particular hearing and smell.

In short, I think I see them more as elves are portrayed in many works of fiction (not saying all here). And I definitely don't see them as "tribal" so much as "conjoined together as one" in a community simply because they are all also magically conjoined with the forest they inhabit. And yes, sylvans in game would have had to "urbanize" to a certain extent, but more in the idea that they would have to come to sense threats as coming from things they would never have fought in community. After all, the sylvan history does forward sylvans as being on the whole rather peaceful and non-aggressive people.

I agree with this part, and I don't see it conflicting any with an American Indian influence.

I also don't view sylvans as much meat-eaters, thus I don't see them really as hunters. Therefore using skins would be kind of out-of-place.

This I do disagree with. The Sylvan docs mention a couple times how the plentifulness of game was a factor in their decision to stay in Yuriquen. Also, it's very difficult to obtain sufficient amounts of protein without eating game. Hunting and eating animal flesh is in almost every case the most efficient method to add protein and iron to a culture's diet.

In addition, there are a number of animal parts which are incredibly useful. Certain organs are used in the making of crafts such as wineskins and pottery. Bone shards are used for needles, and pieces of bone are often used in bows or arrows, or as drinking horns. Bone fragments can also be used in jewelry. Feathers have a wide range of uses, as do ligaments and sinewy muscles.

It is important to note is that while the vast majority of American Indian cultures did eat meat, they ate substantially less meat than the modern American. We're talking about 1/10th as much. Americans (and most Western cultures) really do eat way too much meat.

Again, another fine example of where an American Indian concept differs drastically from a modern American concept. Very few American Indian tribes practiced extensive agriculture, and those that did never tilled the soil. The majority that did practice agriculture did so out of necessity. For example, the Hopi lived in a desert, and subsisted almost entirely off of corn. There isn't much there to eat if you don't grow your own corn. The Cherokee, however, lived in the bountiful Appalachian mountains, and were primarily hunters/gatherers.

While I don't see Sylvans practicing any sort of widespread agriculture, such as growing fields of corn or wheat, I do see them practicing a sort of sustainable horticulture, such as employed by the Yanomami of Brazil. The Yanomami plant very small "gardens", perhaps no larger than 10'x10', usually around the base of a tree. The planting style is drastically different from Western gardens in that plants are not separated by type. Certain plants grow very well intermingled because they use different nutrients in the soil, and what one plant leaves behind, another plant uses. I can see Sylvans planting very small gardens of this sort, but nothing major. These gardens would not be their main food source, but rather simply a supplement to hunting and gathering.

As for a lack of corn and wheat, I agree with that. Corn, wheat, rice, and other starchy foods would not be at the base of the Sylvan diet at all. That base would definitely be nuts, fruits, roots, leaves, insects, and small game.

While a sort of "communal mind" did exist (kind of) in Native American cultures, I do have to admit that this is where Sylvan culture really starts to veer away from anything in our world. When I think Sylvan hierophant, I think something similar to Galadriel from the Lorien Elves in Tolkien's works. I also agree that the Sylvans would place much more emphasis on the good of the community over the good of the individual, even to the extent of individuals identifying themselves more as "a part of the community" than "a solitary being", similar to traditional Chinese village thought paradigms. I particularly like how in the Sylvan docs it mentions that the purpose of marriage is to strengthen family ties and to produce children, and love is really just an "additional blessing", so to speak.

I honestly do see communal sylvans as very isolationist, more in tune with the forest than with other form of humanoid life. I see them as having heightened senses -- in particular hearing and smell.

Ooh, yeah, I like this, and there's already backing for it in the Rithowan enchantment. It'd be great if Sylvans actually had some sort of mechanical bonus to this effect. I already play Eklinaar as having a very keen sense of smell. I even have him use "smell" in place of "sight" in certain metaphors. For example, if he thinks someone is lying, instead of saying something like, "I see in your eyes that you are lying," he'd say, "I can smell on your breath that you are lying."

This I also agree with, and would point to it as not only a major exception in my American Indian parallels, but also one of the key defining points of Sylvan culture. The American Indians were by no means at all a single collection. They were hundreds of different cultures, most of which had a unique language and unique customs. Sylvans are definitely a unified people, which is why they left Elven lands.

-Eklinaar's player

Dark Elf Folder 2/3/04

It would be potentially interesting to RP a dhe'nar who was (for whatever reason) rejecting aspects of the dhe'nar culture. I would have no problem with someone wanting to do that, but in order to actually pull it off you would have to have a player who is intimately familiar with the dhe'nar culture and history. In that case, a very complex and interesting character could be created who (while rejecting parts of it) still springs from the official (and the older unofficial) history.

What annoys me to no end are those who want to "be dhe'nar", but reject the long and rich historical culture that comes with it. They don't know and don't care to learn it, and so their roleplaying doesn't reflect anything having to do with the dhe'nar. Why play a dhe'nar if you aren't willing to learn about it and just want to "do it your own way"?

There is all the difference between a character who rejects the dhe'nar culture saying "I know Noi'sho'rah would not approve of our tossing our bloodlines away by sending our children off to die in order to bring back a worthless sh'arom hide. Practices like this and slavery do not bring us closer to perfection, but shape us into feral animals. We must find a better way." and one who rejects it saying "Racism is bad and we should be nice to people. Just becaue you play the dhe'nar as evil doesn't mean I have to". The first person would create roleplaying opportnities by being different from the cultural norm, while the second would would quickly be ignored.

Saltstone

Re: Roleplaying racial tensions. · on 7/2/2005 11:32:57 AM

A lot of the 'racism' in the game that I've noticed is hate-labeling by species. I'm more of the opinion that we need more characters who take species into account with their interactions with others, than more characters that blanket-dislike this or that label. While the former can look like the latter, there's a degree of discernment going on that gives it a deeper and more refined scope.

Granted, there's not enough of the blanket-racism either. And there's probably not going to be - lots of people play to blow off steam, check out of stressful life, and just want to be accepted. These people will play elves, halflings, dhe'nar, half-elves, and accept their brothers with open arms as far as their interactions go. They'll also be hurt and angry if they're treated with scorn "just because they chose a certain race to play". They're here to have fun, and that sort of roleplay isn't fun for them. So be it.

In the meantime, the rest of us would do well to not only read the racial documentation and note that our species of choice has or has had strained relations with this or that people, but to note how that should affect our own characters in the here-and-now, tempered or exacerbated by their own philosophies and previous/current life experiences. Being an elf and scorning humans and half-elves is all well and good, but just doing it because it's written isn't a good enough reason for it to affect your daily interactions.

As has been mentioned, sublety and finesse go a lot longer toward building an enriching character than mindless, loud, obvious and obnoxious hatemongering. Not that these shouldn't exist at all, mind you. But too many people think they're espousing the epitome of fine roleplay with "Hey, dirt-elf. Nya-nya!" and little else.

In other news, halflings and dark elves get a lot more of a bum rap than half-elves in this game, socially, which is silly. Sillier yet, dark-elves are THE personae non grata mechanically speaking across the entire continent, getting horribly negative shop interactions everywhere but Cysaegir, and yet, half-elves are supposed to be the universally despised species. Go figure.

- Jen et cetera, whose half-elves have been scorned all of twice in years for their heritage.

Re: Roleplaying racial tensions. · on 7/3/2005 9:37:41 AM

I play a sylvan and while I wouldn't say that he's racist he definitely has a sharp tongue towards prideful non-sylvan elves. In fact he would cackle at the insinuation that the term "pure elves" refers to anything but sylvans. I express his disdain for those he feels have lost their way by refering to them as "you/those people."

This is something we see in real world racism: otherising. He creates a distinction to separate himself from them while painting them in a negative light. It's very subtle and we see it all the time. I'd put money on the table that every person who's ever done a job for which you expected to receive a tip has heard a coworker say "Those people never tip." Which people just popped into your head? Mull over that a while.

This kind of racism, I feel, is safe to play in Gemstone and easy if you immerse yourself in your character's history and persona. I've never had anyone get bent out of shape when my character sneered about "city elves" to the point that I felt the player on the other end was offended. And he's never been attacked or killed over it either. Our characters can show distaste and belittle characters of other races without beating them over the head with it.

MAZARU

Playing a Half-Krolvin TIP - use your bark and bristle - allot : By Hemingr

Post any insights and thoughts on HOW to play a half-krolvin effectively here.

Since I play a very humanized half-krolvin many of the other players interacting with me are not aware of my character's race (unless they do a look - which some folks just do not have time or inclination to do). I have found a great way to raise that old racial awareness is by using the distinct half-krolvin actions of bristle and bark (and sometimes roar) often in rp situations. By doing this everyone quickly figures out there is half-krol in the room.

For instance instead of just laughing I will bark laugh. I greet folks with bark hello and say good bye with the bark bye (along with a verbal greeting and farewell most of the time - but that's just me - I am chatty)... etc.

The most fun I have is with some well placed bristles during rp - nothing like a half ape smugly bristling at a Vaalor elf after a delivering a good zinger to REALLY ticking the uppity elf off - heh.

Here is a run down of how I try to incorporate half-krolvin actions into my rp:

BARK::HELLO - greet friends with
BARK::BYE - oh go ahead and guess
BARK::ANGRY - usually after the fourth arrow in a row goes disappearing into the distance and I still have not hit that dern undertaker bat. Or when those halflings in the Small Park start thinking they can sing.
BARK::FEAR - when the demons invaded and ripped Great Lord So and So's spine out and beat Reknown Lady So and So to a pulp with it. Oh yes I yelped. Then died. BARK::JOY - I do not use this one often, frankly it comes off a bit too sexual for me to use in a public setting. But if Hemi finds a nice box-item he has been known to let loose a yelp of joy.
BARK::LAUGH - replaces using just laugh
BARK:LOUD - when someone is playfully being annoying and I wish to playfully remind them whose probably going to rip out their throats out because of it - a non-serious threat sort of.
BARK::NO / BARK::YES - never use these much myself unless talking to a half-krolvin in krolvin
BARK::PAIN - never used, too whimpy for my vision of my half-krol :)
BARK::PLEASURE - another one of the best to use only behind closed doors barks - ehem - not that I know about such things of course.
BARK::PROUD - never used it - but should. I can imagine using it after a pretty good fight or hunt - or as an extra jib after a good zinger.
BRISTLE::ANXIOUS - usually used when waiting for my hunting companions to get done casting their quad-zillion spells on themselves before a hunt.
BRISTLE::EXCITED - usually when surrounded by a great number of soon to be dead foes - Hemi likes a real good hunt - or if a very distractively dressed Lady walks into the room (yes I am a fashion hound and look at everyone I can - leave me alone)
BRISTLE::HAPPY - I interchange it with smiling from time to time
BRISTLE::IMPATIENT - if someone has really gotten on my nerves or if I am stuck doing something really boring.
BRISTLE::NERVOUS - never use it
BRISTLE::PROUD - usually after a really cool shot with an arrow
BRISTLE::SATISFIED - this one is great when sitting around during down time and I just finished a nice swig of cold ale
BRISTLE::SLEEPY - when its three AM and my head has hit the keyboard for the second time and I finally noticed that someone has been talking to Hemi for a good five minutes.
BRISTLE::SMUG - randomly anytime I am sitting around in public
ROAR::LOUDLY / ROAR::TRIUMPH Are the only two roars I use regularly - both right after a particulary good fight.

Ok I showed you mine - now you show me yours. :)

Re: Playing a Half-Krolvin TIP - use your bark and bristle - allot :

Besides using the HK verbs, I'm fond of using ACT or smile, to indicate his more Krolvin features. I.E.

Act yawns widely, revealing large white canines.

Act picks at the strings of his lute quickly with his long grey fingers.

etc.

Rail