Category Role-Playing (53)
Topic Thoughts on Role-Playing (4)
Message The Intransigence of the Children of Gods (778)
By UBERWENCH@PLAY.NET (Lylia)
On Jan 31, 2000 at 21:12

There's been a subject of hot debate in the Sorcery folder that I decided to bring here, as it's applicable to more than just Sorcerors. The thread dealt mainly with those who would make their characters the children of gods, but I think it has a wider applicability.

When you decide that your character IS the son of Koar, for instance, and decree that Koar IS a Drake, you have limited the roleplay of those around you. Suppose their character believes that Koar is not a Drake, or that Koar is something else completely different from what you, as Koar's son, say he *must* be? Anyone hearing that has to either throw away their own character's conceptions of Koar and bow to your version of the story or they can laugh at you and pelt you with rotten turnips. Most people will, quite understandably, choose the second option. No one likes to have his ideas wrenched into new shapes by someone else.

One of the problems I have with characters who are the sons of gods is that such an exalted position gives that character almost complete control over other people's views about that god. It shows a lack of respect for another's boundaries and a lack of awareness of your own. It is the GMs' job to decide what a god is like, not ours. We can and should bring religion more alive within the game, but not to the point of saying, "Oh, yeah, Koar? He's my daddy. He's a Drake, but he likes to read the paper in the bathtub like you or me."

Another trouble I have with it is that few people can live up to such a task. From what I've seen, you have to have a *lot* of roleplaying skill, a properly magisterial, "demigoddish" bearing, and a good deal of charisma to get people to play along with your character's divine origins; I honestly don't think I could live up to all that if I wanted to. Bleeds managed it, yes, but Bleeds's player is arguably the finest roleplayer ever to grace the game.

Speaking of Bleeds, note that though he essentially created the Huntress, he never claimed to be her son, nor did he define her for others. He was, as I recall, rather circumspect about making pronouncements about the nature of his goddess. People were willing to invest their faith in his creation because it was A) plausible, B) well-played, and C) not contradictory to anything else that was already in Elanthian history or theology.

That last comment is particularly important---being the son of, say, Marlu might be acceptable if it's really well-done, but saying that Marlu is *definitely* an Ur-Daemon who has offspring going around hunting kobolds and expecting everyone to accept it contradicts official wisdom that *nobody* knows what Marlu is. It's unfair to force that down other people's throats and go against what their own characters may believe. By doing so, you're setting yourself up for a hail of rotten turnips.

I've read in another post (see the Sorceror folder) that everything's okay in fantasy gaming. Well...yes and no. This IS a fantasy game, and we DO write the stories ourselves. But by general consensus, we stay within the bounds not only of possibility, which are quite broad, but also of plausibility, which are both more constrictive and more demanding. Sure, I can roleplay a character as a troll king who thinks she's a cat and worships Elsie, the Great Horned Cow-Goddess of Battle and Meat By-products, but I cannot reasonably expect other people to take me seriously. My fantasy must not only be interesting and logical to me, it must also fit in with others' fantasy instead of trampling or erasing it.

I have heard pleas from players of godly offspring to grant their roleplay choices some respect. Respect isn't given, it's earned, and it usually requires that some respect be granted in return. I'll respect someone's choices without question, as long as my own choices are likewise respected. When someone tells me how I *must* view a particular god and his sons and his second cousins twice-removed, I feel as though my own choices have not been respected, and Lylia reacts accordingly.

Rotten turnip, anyone? ;)

-----Lauren, Lylia's player

 

Category Role-Playing (53)
Topic Thoughts on Role-Playing (4)
Message Re: The Intransigence of the Children of Gods (782)
By DRAGOSIS@PLAY.NET (Armaxis)
On Jan 31, 2000 at 21:54

I agree wholeheartedly with you, Lauren.

If any of you are on AOL, I suggest you go to some of their freeform roleplay rooms. Guess what you'll see a majority of the time? Angels, half-Gods, full Gods, demons and the like...all invincible and impervious to any attack, and all so powerful they could level the entire the planet...or so says the person behind them.

But that's freeform roleplay. You decide whatever you want about the character. This is GemStone3, a game WITH boundaries, a game where no regular player can be impervious or invincible, or the actual blood relative of a God.

There are no boundaries in such freeform roleplay, but there -are- boundaries in GemStone. Once in a while these lines are crossed by a player, and guess what? They're given hell for it because it's not their place to draw the lines, or go outside them. That job belongs to the GM's.

When you think of the real legends, who do you think of? I'll bet you that it's the people who have created vivid, believable, and interesting characters within the boundaries the GM's have made for us.

-- Armaxis' player

 

Category Role-Playing (4)
Topic Conflict! (2)
Message Re: The Lines (4420)
By UBERWENCH@PLAY.NET (Lylia)
On Aug 4, 2000 at 22:28

Your character's history is both lyrical and creative. However, if I may, I'd like to ask you to think about a few things (and please accept this in the spirit of constructive criticism; I've no urge to trample on anyone else's fun).

That is a history as your character knows it---but it matches nothing in any of the official documentation. Before you think me closed-minded (I believe that was a term you'd used in a previous post), let me ask you what you think Elanthia would be like if everyone were free to color anywhere they wanted and not just within the lines---the lines drawn by Simutronics, that is? That's not intended snidely; I'm sincerely curious as to what you think would happen if this person were a half-god, that one were a prince, that other one over there was really a rolton and not a halfling in a costume. I think you see where I'm headed with this---that creativity is fine, but chaos is not.

Also, as a particularly perceptive individual noted, I'm curious as to how your character knows his history so thoroughly if he was left as an infant; were there documents left to him somehow that told his story? If so, how and why does he believe it completely when it's contrary to the evidence of his ears and eyes as he goes about his daily life in Elanthia? Would he be likely to believe in this Elven Utopia (which, by the way, literally means "nowhere land" if I'm not mistaken, interesting etymology to think about for those who believe in Utopian schemes, but that's beside the point) even though nowhere is there any evidence for it, or even rumors told by others about it?

A sonnet is a very rigid form of poetry; it must have a certain number of lines, it must follow a particular rhyme scheme, it should have a certain meter. However, the subject matter of a sonnet is completely up to the individual poet. Roleplaying within Elanthia is no different, to me; the form is set for us, but what we do within that framework is our own making. However, when you choose to write blank verse and demand that people accept it as a sonnet, you'll find resistance; creating an entirely new *everything* may be wonderfully creative, but it is not what this particular game's about. I don't think it's "closed-minded" to expect structured roleplay from a structured roleplaying game; on the contrary, I think it's unfair to insist that the game mutate into a completely freeform roleplaying game so that individuals who want to make themselves up from top to bottom will be taken at their word. Elanthia is a sonnet (well, okay, for some people it's more of a silly limerick), not blank verse; that's part of its enduring charm.

I should state again what I've said plenty of times to others---I'm all hunky-dory with the idea that your character *believes* these things. You can believe you're a half-god, half-demon, half-rolton, whatever; believe you're the high priest of the Great God Bawananana, believe your dead fly talks to you, believe you're a halfling even though you're a giant, knock yourself out any way you like. It's your character, and I would never dream of telling you how to play him or her. Far from being closed-minded, I'm quite tolerant of anyone who plays a character who believes just about any offbeat thing at all.

However, no one can then turn around and expect my character to defy all evidence of her ears and eyes for the sake of someone else's roleplay by insisting that she accept that he really IS a demon, rolton, or Arkati's nephew. It would be detrimental to my own roleplay, as I play my character as a pragmatist, rationalist, and skeptic. Prove to her that this place exists now or ever did despite the fact that no one else in history has ever seen, heard of, or talked about it, and she'll be the first in line to defend your beliefs. Otherwise, she will consider your character unbalanced and will be indulgent at best, mocking at worst.

Again, try to imagine an Elanthia in which there was no collective history, there were no maps, there were no gods in whom the majority of the people put their faith. Creative? Sure, there's all kinds of potential for creativity there. But would it still be Elanthia, or would it just be a chat room with verbs in which we were all gods or monsters if we chose to be, and everyone had to accept what we said we were simply by our own fiat?

-----Lauren, Lylia's player

 

Category Role-Playing (4)
Topic Conflict! (2)
Message Re: Gods, Monsters, and Cognitive Dissonance (long) (4553)
By ZILAL@PLAY.NET
On Aug 10, 2000 at 14:56

I don't know that the reasons given for shunning ultracreativity hold up... after all, there's no farmer class in the mangler, but I can certainly play a farmer. And I am loath to tell people not to do something (well) just because others with less skill will try to copy it (poorly). I don't see it as either coloring within or without the lines... I see a subtle gradation between the two poles. But I and Lauren are of a mind; we both prefer the kind of creative constructs here that come from being forced to think within a box.

We need to work harder at our reasons why it's okay to play a farmer but not a daugher of Ivas. I have trouble expressing it myself. I am in danger of giving only the impression that I simply can't bear to see people roleplaying differently than I do.

There are two reasons I prefer not to see: (Yagut dissolves into a puddle of mud and disappears). I believe the unfettered ability to create will result in inferior art, while creativity forced through rules will result in a generally more brilliant product. This is, I admit, a bit elitist. But I do write, and there's some wonderful stuff I never would have come up with if I hadn't been forced to find a rhyme for "guava" or to squeeze my essay down to 200 words, condensing the meaning.

Perhaps it's because a person must be truly talented to do free-form well. Everyone is familiar with the saying "learn the rules before you break them," and I think that holds for roleplaying too. e. e. cummings may have done exceptional work while breaking the rules, but I think I better stick to them. So my first reason is this: I have no faith in GS's populace to do free-form well. I fear that 99% of the folks who are breaking the rules never understood why those rules were there in the first place, which is a horrible way to go about free-form anything.

Second reason (AKA, why *are* the rules there in the first place?): a world is nothing without predictability. Sounds terrible, doesn't it? A bit humdrum? But innovation is worthless without its feet firmly on a solid base. For something to have an impact on us, we have to be able to compare it to the predictable patterns already in our heads. If a thing is simply too far removed from the predictable, it's floating out in a disconnected nowhere land. Its impact is lost. (It may even invoke the "Hello! Random!" voice in my head.)

We can see this in poetry, in the movies, in paintings. Dali's work inspires such a great reaction because it's feeding off how we know things are supposed to look. We see the distorted people and clock faces in there. If his paintings were just random dripping shapes with little relation to anything, I doubt we'd know who he was.

When *I* see (Haggaba wiggles her ears three times and turns into a bat), I'm afraid the only impact it has on me is to provoke a "What the heck? Ha! Random!" response. Nothing in GS has ever given me the idea that a person could turn into a bat, via ear-wiggling or any other method. It's as if a hot pink cartoon rabbit had been painted sitting on the Mona Lisa's head. All right, so it's fresh, maybe it's creative... but is it any good?

I will throw humility to the wind and answer that. Not only is it bad art, but it's jarring and it takes away from the rest of the painting. (It's like when I accidentally recorded 10 seconds of the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles into the middle of my copy of Willow.) So from where I'm sitting... for an ACT or SMILE command to be good roleplaying in GS, it has to fit in somehow with what our brain has come to logically expect from the lands.

Obviously the tricky part is that this differs from person to person; but I should hope we can all follow the same basic guidelines when considering out-of-the-ordinary actions. If it isn't a thing that generally happens to other people in the lands, steer clear.

(Juspera accepts a message from a fidgety runner, who dashes off.) - Fine in my book, though I hear some GMs have a problem...

(Juspera unleashes an unearthly groan as her eyes flash red!) - Huh?

(Juspera vanishes in a puff of smoke and swirling fleas!) - Yeah, right.

I feel my spiel petering out. I am hesitant to tell other people how to roleplay, but I might plead that the next time we consider having our characters turn into a great horned owl, we think of the placid Mona Lisa with a tiny Babs Bunny taking tea on her forehead.

J

 

Category Role-Playing (4)
Topic Conflict! (2)
Message Re: Gods, Monsters, and Cognitive Dissonance (long) (4566)
By CHULU@PLAY.NET (Titaniia)
On Aug 10, 2000 at 18:38

Anti-Klaive,

I invite you to read some haiku and tell me that structure cannot be extroidinary. In invite you to read Shakespeare, and again tell me that structure cannot lead to the unusual and unforgettable.

I would also put forth that if your character needs to be a half-god werewolf in order to be unusual and interesting, something is wrong. When I think of the truly wonderful experiences I've had in Gemstone they were with completely "normal" characters who were utterly extroidinary in their roleplay. Spend some time with Lylia. Watch the Luukosian bunch in their rituals sometime. Ask some of the people on the porch to tell you about their history. Attend a dhe'nar storytelling. Amazing roleplay is everywhere around you and none of it *needs* to rely on pulling in elements outside accepted Elanthian history and culture in order to exist.

If you were an actor, I'd say you're relying on props to tell the story rather then telling it yourself. Frankly, I'm not too sure you're interested in anyone elses opinion of what you're doing, but by stating outright that you intend to just ignore anyone who doesn't believe you, you're cutting yourself off from all the fun of roleplaying in a multi-player environment.

I'll make one more suggestion, and then I'm done with this thread. I would find a character who told stories about half gods and werewolves and who occasionally used the smile and act verbs to send very vague hints to be fascinating. Imagine a character telling a tale about werewolves who then smiles:

NotKlaive smiles a bit too widely, showing bright, sharpened canine teeth for the briefest of moments.

Now we have a question. Did he sharpen them himself? Does he fancy himself something he's not? Or are they maybe a sign of something he might be? Another example:

(NotKlaive removes his glove, revealing knuckles thick with brown hair. He glances around, suddenly seeming to notice that people are looking at him and quickly replaces the thick leather hand coverings.)

Now again, we have something even the most avid "colorer within the lines" will appreciate. Hints of the extroidinary are *always* more interesting then being bopped over the head with it. Tease us. Make us wonder what you might be. Show intricacy and delicacy in your roleplay and pretty soon the others will be telling you that *they* think you might have lycanthropy, which is much more fun then you having to tell them.

My 2 silvers.

~ Robin

Daring anyone to call Lylia "plain".

 

Category Role-Playing (4)
Topic Thoughts on Role-Playing (4)
By NEVREK from PLAY.NET (I would eat your face first.)
On Jul 5, 2002 at 01:29
Subject Re: Oh no! My kids will have Giant Dwarf lips! (22065)

"I do "feel" that sometimes the talk in here actually stifles roleplay, rather than assisting it." - Moongirl

I can agree to this to an extent, but a lot of the rigidity you noted is due to a general resentment for those who are exceptions to the rule in a sea full of exceptions to the rule. When everyone is an exception to the rule, then the rule is broken, overruled, or replaced.

I can live with lily white dark elves, but I can't live with Boboh the Half-Halfling Half-Elven Toymaker. If enough Bobohs exist, then the rules are altered to accomodate them, and the cohesive world degrades a little.

We're playing a game where more people want to be the exception to the rule than have fun with the rule. Stifling roleplay? Well... grab a coloring book, grab your favorite colors, and work on that picture. Those lines aren't their to stifle you, they're there to guide, and damn it.. you can put whatever colors you want to on that picture, color with any style you want... you can make your own paisley, stripes, polka dots, whatever. There's a LOT of room to work within those lines, whose only job is to keep the picture coherent.

-=Nevrek, player of=-