Danay's Domain - RP Half-Elves

Category Role-Playing (4)
Topic Half-Elven (24)
By ALENA from PLAY.NET (Trouble)
On Apr 5, 2002 at 02:46
Subject Re: Half-elven items... (331)

I see the half-elven language as spoken, not written. A patois of elven and human tongues. As regards racial items....you forgot the made OF half-elves, Nofret....my favorite to point out the flaws with racial items. -- Jacinto

My problem with Half-Elven 'culture' and language is that there is no single standard we can apply either thing to. Ask 10 Half-Elves what their background is, and you're likely to come up with 10 completely different answers.

Half-Elves, as such, don't really HAVE a culture (nor are they known for anything, such as their craftsmanship), aside from sharing a bond as 'outcasts'.. it's not as if there were/are any great Half-Elven cities, or any single place that Half-Elves have gathered.

Because of this, I can think of no way that Half-Elves could have ever developed an independent culture or a consistent language. Some people think of Half-Elven as a pidgin language, a mixture between Elven and Common. I suppose I can mostly accept this explanation, but one thing has always kept me from really believing it to be an actual language. Dialects.

In Europe, especially in smaller villages, regional (and local) dialects abound. Most people will speak the main language (French, Italian..), as well as the dialect that belongs to their town or region. Sometimes two towns only ten minutes apart will have completely different dialects. I suppose Elven is Elven and Common is Common, no matter where you go (based on current game mechanics), but because of my language and cultural experiences in real life, I imagine smaller groups of Half-Elves having their own sort of pidgin language to communicate with each other.. not as one language readily understood by every Half-Elf out there, regardless of where on the planet they came from.

-- Alena

Category Role-Playing (4)
Topic Half-Elven (24)
By BELISAR from PLAY.NET (Belisar Aurellien)
On Apr 6, 2002 at 11:56
Subject On things, and beings, "Half Elfin" (was - Re: Half-elven items...) (345)

As a lover of Half Elf characters, I still must say that since there is OFFICALLY no Half Elf society, or continuous blood lineage (IE half elf does not beget half elf) -Belisar

Bel... where does it officially say that half elves can't beget half elves?

The half-elf racial documentation on the website begins with 'The progeny of human and elf parents...' , but I interpret this as saying what bloodlines make a half-elf, not 'ONLY the progeny of human and elf parents...' Nowhere in that racial documentation does it say that said progeny of human and elf parents is sterile.

Ah, I see I worded poorly. In place of "There is OFFICALLY no . . .continuous blood lineage" I should of said "There is no OFFICIAL . . . . continuous blood lineage".

I meant to point out that no where in the docs does Simu say Half Elfs can breed together, and thus produce further Half Elfs.

Due to the assumeable complexity of Half Elfin genetics, I'd suspect that Half Elf breeding could be interesting. lets simplify the gene structure to 3 parts.

Part 1: Shared Genetic mapping. The stuff that is the same between elf and human, and thus allows them to breed in the first place.
Part 2: Genes in which the human genome is dominant over the elfin.
Part 3: Genes in wich the elfin genome is dominant over human.

So a first generation "Half Elf" would be comprised of:
Part1: dominance/recessive are immaterial here.
Part2: Human dominant gene paired with Elf recessive gene
Part3: Elf dominant gene paired with human recessive gene

So if two first generation half elfs breed their are four possible genetic transfer patterns.

Pattern1:Part1 + Part2(human dominant gene) + Part3(elf dominant gene)

Pattern2: Part1 + Part2(human dominant gene) + Part3(human recessive gene)

Pattern3: Part1 + Part2(elf recessive gene) + Part3(elf dominant gene)

Pattern4: Part1 + Part2(elf recessive gene) + Part3(human recessive gene)

With 4 possible patterns sent from each of two parents that gives us 16 possible combinations:

Parent1.Parent2.Progeny
Pattern.Pattern.Genetics (all cary Part1 + the listed)
1.......1.......Part2(Human+Human)+Part3(Elf+Elf)=HalfElf(type1)
1.......2.......Part2(Human+Human)+Part3(Elf+human)=HalfElf(type2)
1.......3.......Part2(Human+elf)+Part3(Elf+Elf)=HalfElf(type3)
1.......4.......Part2(Human+elf)+Part3(Elf+human)=HalfElf(type4)
2.......2.......Part2(Human+Human)+Part3(Human+Human)=Human(pure)
2.......3.......Part2(Human+elf)+Part3(human+Elf)=HalfElf(type4)
2.......4.......Part2(Human+elf)+Part3(human+human)=Human(recessive elf carrier)
3.......3.......Part2(elf+elf)+Part3(Elf+Elf)=Elf(pure)
3.......4.......Part2(elf+elf)+Part3(Elf+human)=Elf(recessive human carrier)
4.......4.......Part2(elf+elf)+Part3(human+human)=HalfElf(type5)

So we end with 6 possible ways to get 5 different type of Half Elfs, 1 pure human, 1 human who crossed with an elf could produce an elf, 1 elf, and 1 elf who crossed with a human could produce a human. I might be concerned about HalfElf(type 5) due to too many recessive traits. True I left out the possibilities of co dominance, but thats too much work for something that has no basis in reality.

Most likely a half elf and half elf breeding would tend to produce a being reconizable as a half elf, however, there is a chance for pure human or pure elf to be born out of the mix.

I wonder if a Dhe'Nar scholar has experimented with these breeding programs? I'll have to meander over and pester them.

Anyways I'm not sure why I started typing this, just hit next and be done with it. - Belisar Half Elfin

Category Role-Playing (4)
Topic Half-Elven (24)
By OBSESSION from PLAY.NET (Danay)
On Jun 8, 2002 at 08:06
Subject Re: To the GMs (439)

I think the point is that the system would be more useful, and the players better served, if the word "pariah" were simply removed from the description (I like "a Half-elf of X heritage," myself). Everyone already knows half-elves are hated in many parts of the world. It wouldn't hurt anything to change the wording, and many more players would then feel they could take advantage of the new system. Take pariah out and everyone wins.

I don't like it (as in ME the player doesn't like having that slapped on my character's forhead just because it is a "bad word"). However, I think it or something similar, outcast for example, should stay.

What I've been hearing from most people who don't like it is, my character isn't a pariah so I don't want them called that. I do not believe that everyone already knows this or deeply understands it about half-elves or there wouldn't be so many of these kinds of posts. I don't believe that people are truly understanding the status of half-elves in Elanthia because until this point nothing has rubbed our noses in it.

We've all had the freedom up until this point to blithely ignore the reality of Elanthia and pretend that half-elves are just like everyone else in the world, when they really aren't. I've read posts from people here over the years upset that someone called their character a mutt or a half-breed because of the race they picked in the manager, saying they shouldn't be treated like that and why was it happening.

This is just like the situation with dark elves in the EN. The game is finally putting things into perspective where the races are concerned and finally underlining truths that should have existed for us as players all along, but that we have been able to easily ignore. If this finally causes more people to sit up and take notice of the meaning of race in Elanthia and comment on it, then it's a GOOD thing.

So I say leave it as is.

Robin

Category Role-Playing (4)
Topic Half-Elven (24)
By OBSESSION from PLAY.NET (Danay)
On Jun 8, 2002 at 08:18
Subject Re: To the GMs (440)

The simple fact is that not everyone see's them that way, so to have such a label would be BAD RP. I don't see how it can get much simpler than this, if you can't understand this simple concept, then parhaps you should take some basic logic course, its not that hard here people.

You know, you really shouldn't insult the intelligence and reasoning faculties of people who simply disagree with you.

Here is my ever so flawed-in-logic argument.

The culture title is like EVERYTHING ELSE about your character that players can see that is not always readily known by the character. I can't just magically know your name just because the screen says so. I need to RP that I've heard it somewhere or ask to be introduced to you. I can't know you are a wizard or rogue just because it says so on my screen. I need to look at what you are wearing and deduce it or see you cast a spell or something that gives it away.

Take out the word "pariah" and it's the same issue. I can't know you are from Vornavis or Ta'Ardenai just because it says so on the screen. I have to use the information on the screen and then decide if I know that or not. Maybe I'm unfamiliar with the elven cultures and would never be able to guess on my own and wait until something is said that tips it off. Or maybe the reverse is true and I can tell just from quick observation what your background is.

Now add the word pariah back in there. Nothing changes. The screen is not telling me that my character thinks yours is a bad person. I should be interacting with you based on the visible clues I am given and based on what my character thinks of various races and specific people.

The game is not bad RP, it's not doing our RP for us and it shouldn't. It's giving us important information and then what we do with that information is the RP. In this topic, the important information is that half-elves are pariahs in most normal Elanthian society. What everyone as an individual does with that information is up to them.

Robin

Category Role-Playing (4)
Topic Half-Elven (24)
By OBSESSION from PLAY.NET (Danay)
On Jun 8, 2002 at 08:34
Subject Re: To the GMs (441)

"The progeny of human and elf parents, half-elves are often looked down upon by both races due to the immense dislike the elves and humans have for each other.

Half-elves are often loners and usually are wary of strangers. They face constant hostility as they are caught between two conflicting cultures with a history of animosity towards each other. As a result of this, they are bitter and suspicious, but they make excellent allies if one can gain their trust."

The above is the old documentation. It includes saying half-elves are looked down upon and face constant hostility, which effects their personalities so much as to make them bitter and suspicious. Oh yeah, sounds like a wonderful life!

"They are treated with some disdain by Humans, however, and quite a bit of distaste by Elves (both light and dark) since they are not of pure Elven blood. They'd certainly have better familial prospects in the Human Empire, as most Elves wouldn't have much to do with a Half-elf."

This is the new information. And goes to what someone else already said to the person who was posting about Ta'Vaalor. Vaalor elves more than any other House hate half-elves. A half-elf is DEFINITELY a pariah there, even if on an individual basis he has made some friends.

Okay, so none of the above says anything about vermin. It does definitely imply unwanted. Notice the use of disdain in the second quote. Here's the dictionary definition:

disdain
1. to look upon or treat with contempt; despise; scorn.
2. to think unworthy of notice, response, etc.; consider beneath oneself

So maybe half-elves aren't vermin, they are just despised, scorned and unworthy of notice. Fair enough.

Also from the new culture listing:

"Those Half-elves who are lucky enough to be born outside both of the Human and Elven Empires may enjoy a childhood with more dignity,"

There you go, that's your out. For any half-elf who says they came from a place unusual where they were a readily accepted part of society, simply pick none to reflect the status that you have always lived with. Perfect solution.

Robin

Category Role-Playing (4)
Topic Half-Elven (24)
By OBSESSION from PLAY.NET (Danay)
On Jun 9, 2002 at 01:57
Subject Re: To the GMs (445)

"Now add the word pariah back in there. Nothing changes" - Me

So then why are you so adamantly supporting keeping the word Pariah in there?

-----------------------------------------

What you quoted from me was addressing something else. They are different issues. The quote above was addressing the idea that the game is telling us how to RP or that our characters don't like each other, etc. The game isn't telling you how to RP your character. YOU decide if you think half-elves are undesirables or not. That's up to every individual to RP for themselves based on who their character is, their culture and their beliefs on race.

I support pariah remaining because it reinforces the reality of the status of half-elves in Elanthia as a whole. It's obvious that many people play half-elves but don't want to accept they are outcasts. They want to just be half-elf without any attached negatives to it. They don't like the game pointing out the negatives. But again, just like dark elves in Ta'Illistim there ARE negatives. The half-elf or dark elf may have lots of friends, may have come from a family and/or town where they were accepted. That doesn't mean they are accepted in general.

The pariah title underlines Elanthian reality. And I think it's about time.

Robin

Category Role-Playing (4)
Topic Half-Elven (24)
By OBSESSION from PLAY.NET (Danay)
On Jun 11, 2002 at 00:23
Subject Re: To the GMs (453)

Until then I don't see why we have to be the ones labeled, especially in a game that doesn't emphasize it as much as they advertise.

Okay, so you say the game doesn't emphasize it as much as advertised. So they add something that finally emphasizes it, but you don't like that something and want it removed. I believe the entire point of the pariah label is to add that emphasis you pointed out has been lacking.

Wouldn't you think the half-elves would be the ones ostracized in the elven nations? Don't you think it's rather odd that Ta'Illistim accepts us and not dark elves? Wouldn't the snooty elves dismiss us like skunks if the outcast statement were indeed true? Heh, not really saying I want it changed, just something to think about.

Personally I think that half-elves should be treated much worse in Ta'Vaalor than they are currently. I should have to feel hesitant to even walk in the gate. Illistim is a bit more accepting since their main gig is knowledge and that tends to lead to a somewhat more open society. But I'm sure that my half-elf in Illistim pays higher prices for things there, and the guards dismiss her (they smile at full elves and call dark elves scum). So it is there if you look.

As Kristin pointed out the dark elves are treated worse because they are considered to have betrayed their race. Half-elves are viewed more as a distasteful accident of birth. In other words, it's the difference between the actions of an entire elven house and the poor choices of individuals.

Robin

Category Role-Playing (4)
Topic Half-Elven (24)
By SIMU-MELISSA from PLAY.NET
On Jun 18, 2002 at 12:35
Subject Re: To the GMs (472)

I'm not gonna read this whole thread, I'll just answer the question.

To be frank the whole "pariah" concept is - pure and simple - a compromise.

Half-elves *HAVE NO* culture. The closest thing to culture they have is being cast-offs from other cultures. We would have preferred to release half-elves with NO cultural options, but that wouldn't have been fair. So we provided options which would continue to work with the history of the world.

If your half-elf is not a pariah. Good for you. Don't choose any of the pariah options. Proudly proclaim yourself for what you are: simply, a half-elf.

Heck, if you wish to be a beloved citizen of Ta'Vaalor, good for you too. I encourage people to play deviants, because in the end ... exceptions make the rule, right? But how long would be be an exception to the rule if we provided it as a cultural option? Not long. And GS3 history simply doesn't support half-elves as being a well-loved race.

Half-elves all over Elanthia have lived hard lives ... that's probably why so many become great adventurers. Instead of fighting that ... embrace it. It's one of the truly unique and interesting things about the group.

Category Role-Playing (4)
Topic Half-Elven (24)
By SIMU-MELISSA from PLAY.NET
On Jun 19, 2002 at 11:17
Subject Re: To the GMs (480)

If you guys wanna come up with some alternative wordings, I'll see what I can do. However, acceptable wording will follow the following guidelines:

* Half-Elves are not welcome in the Human and Elven Empires (and New Ta'Faendryl) -- Thus there will be no "Half-Dark Elf" or "Half-Vaalor Elf" cultural titles.
* Half-Elves are welcome, but not included in the Sylvans -- Thus there will be no Half-Elves of the Dha'renals (sp?)
* There will be no Half-Elven Dhe'nar
* There are no Half-Elven cultures
* Half-Elves born among the other races are so rare that we won't be adding titles to them.
* Half-Elves born in the mixed-breed down (like Wehnimer's Landing) have no cultural alignment.

So give me your input. So long as we don't violate the history of the game, the wording doesn't matter.

Category Role-Playing (4)
Topic Half-Elven (24)
By OBSESSION from PLAY.NET (Danay)
On Jun 21, 2002 at 05:02
Subject Re: To the GMs (554)

I have always played my character as having a history as coming from a farm ...

So the alternate meaning of Pariah of Ruralist fits me to a t so to speak.

I know some take their RP as being dark, unaccepted, outcast roles but yet there are some of us that exist in a working capacity (ie clerics or empaths) that would be unaccepted for the most part but be used.

If the opportunity existed for those of us to take a title other than Pariah , I think this argument could be ended.

I am not asking for 50 alternate titles just maybe 2-3.

Just one half-elf opinion.

I think a lot of people still are misunderstanding exactly what the culture choice is.

This is the applicable definition of culture:

5.the behaviors and beliefs characteristic of a particular social, ethnic, or age group

ONLY people who have had a strong specific cultural influence for their character should pick a culture in the GS system. There are even pureblooded characters who are NOT choosing a culture because they were not strongly influenced by one more than another. I can think of three of these people off the top of my head and I know there are many more.

In regards to half-elves, it is an even more crucial point because most likely the majority of half-elves in Elanthia do not have as strong of a cultural influence as many of them were raised out side the mainstream cultures.

Why were they raised outside of them? Because the union of an elf and a human is an abomination in most people's eyes. And the proof of that union, the offspring, are not accepted among the mainstream elven and human cultures.

So if like the person above said, if the cultural influence was a rural farming one that was not predominantly of a specific human or elven state, then picking none *IS* your cultural background. Saying a half-elven ruralist makes zero sense as that is not a specific culture as is defined above or within this system.

I think people are maybe thinking that picking none will somehow penalize them. I don't believe that's at all true. The entire point of this system and the CBSS is to give details about exactly who your character is. If your character does not have a strong cultural influence, then you should USE the system to tell that, by picking none. That information is just as important as a human saying they are from Mestanir or a Dwarf saying they are from a specific clan.

In the case of Demonea, she seems to be saying that even though she's half Faendryl by blood, she does not have that cultural influence. That means not choosing one is what tells something about your character. It's not about her racial heritage.

For all the others who say that pariah of some place does not fit, that's great. Don't pick it then. By doing that you actually give the needed information about your character.

It is MORE accurate to pick none for some characters than it is to pick a culture that has not influenced them. There is no sense in using the system if you use it in such a way that you are actually giving off false information about your character.

I met a half-elf who chose pariah of Vaalor recently. His speech and behavior is that of a low class human. Even the most open minded of Vaalor elves would find him reprehensible. So my character made fun of him in his Vaalor cloak (with his Vaalor label). He even said he had been raised somewhere within the human Empire. Why pick something that doesn't actually fit who your character really is?

Robin

Category Role-Playing (4)
Topic Half-Elven (24)
By OBSESSION from PLAY.NET (Danay)
On Jun 28, 2002 at 05:38
Subject Re: Pariah clarification? (608)

I see a inter-marriage between a human and an elf as being a thing of disgust to Elves and Men...the actual offspring, I think, would be at least slightly accepted, if they showed the inclination towards one culture or another.

This is coming from a more benevolent modern American mindset than from anything documented within Elanthia though. In RL I abhor racism and definitely feel that children should not be held accountable for things their parents did. But in Elanthia it's a hard world. Racism is rampant because we aren't just talking about variations of skin color, eye shape, physical build, etc, they actually are different races. Which is something as Earth humans we can't really comprehend.

Offspring of a mating of two races that hate each other would only serve as a reminder of two people doing something that most people within their culture would never consider and find distasteful in the extreme. So it only makes sense that these living reminders would be shunned to some extent or another.

Also discouraging is the fact that the half-elven greater Tehir tribe (the Culhaini) cannot be a reality now, except as a pariah!!?!. Absurd even, that these persecuted half-elves cannot even have a culture in the barren wastelands of the Sea of Fire, to which they surely would be drawn. There would be half-elven societies in a real world with such attitudes, birds of a feather flock together.

If half-elves did band together long enough to form their own culture, they would no longer be half-elves. They would be something else entirely. (Think cockapoo for dog breeds.)

Now why are they pariahs of a city? Shouldn't they be pariahs of a PEOPLE? Well, this still just doesn't make sense when you pick it in the game.

I agree that the pariah "FROM" (insert place here) is misleading. It does make it sound like you are actually from the city and I wish that part was phrased a bit differently. But despite the phrasing, it doesn't mean you are a pariah of a city. It means you are a pariah of the culture of that nation, state, barony, House, etc. Ta'Illistim is not just a city, but a city-state with surrounding communities. (Sylvarraend and any others unseen.) It simply means that you are associated with Illistim culture, so it does mean a people.

If I choose to be a pariah of Selanthia, does this mean my father was from Selanthia, and I'm accepted by my mother's elven house more? Or does it mean Im slightly more outcast by elves than I am from Selanthia?

All it means is, that you were raised with Selanthian traditions, mores, beliefs, etc. It doesn't say anything really about who hates or loves you more. It's about which culture has influenced you the most.

Last question. Are you trying to copy Inferno?

Sayori

From reading other posts further on, I guess you are referring to the extreme racism that exists in Inferno. If Gemstone was a small game and had a similar player base to Inferno, they would have been a lot more similar all along. Elanthian racism according to documentation really isn't much different, perhaps maybe just in degree.

The significant difference is Inferno has a very small player base, the majority of them dedicated to RP first and foremost. This means that RP in the game is easily policed (I believe you have to have your personal story approved before you can even play) and it also means that the players themselves are much more strict in their self policing of sticking to the documentation. Gemstone is too big for the GM's to do that type of policing and the player base is too broad in the types of players for the players to do it.

I have several friends who play or have played Inferno. One of them was involved in an illicit interracial love affair. It wasn't just that they had to be circumspect, they absolutely could not allow other characters to find out about it. By and large, Gemstone players do not want to RP to the extent that they have to suffer actual repercussions for their RP choices. They are much more into either just looking the other way, tossing off insults or even embracing people who go against the cultures. In Gemstone, for the average player, being nice takes precedence over realistic RP.

This is one of the reasons that RP is often lacking in Gemstone, because there really haven't been prices to pay for RP choices and the gritty edge is too often smoothed over. I am very thankful that Melissa and the GM's have been willing to add some of the grittiness that has been lacking and are sticking to their guns on these issues. It will help the game mature.

Robin

Category Role-Playing (4)
Topic Half-Elven (24)
By OBSESSION from PLAY.NET (Danay)
On Jul 29, 2002 at 03:38
Subject Re: More Pariah Stuff (685)

"Players of Half-elves may choose for their character to be a pariah of any of the Human cultures....."

It says MAY not WILL!

Just my 3 cents

Exactly! May! It's totally up to you as the player of a half-elf.

Here's how it works. All the cultures listed as a choice for half-elves do not fully accept half-elves in their culture. In fact, aside from sylvans, they go anywhere from grudgingly tolerate to outright despise half-elves. And even sylvans will not allow half-elves into their guilds. So if you pick one of those cultures, then your half-elf is a pariah of that culture.

However, if you were not raised in one of those cultures and were raised by a loving human couple in a small village somewhere or were raised in a mixed race town where such things barely raised an eyebrow and were mostly accepted, then you go with that. Don't pick something on the list, since none of the cultures on the list fit what you and I just described.

You are not being shut out of the culture system by picking none. None is in fact a very important choice and can convey just as much information about your character as picking something from a list. The entire point of the system is to give an accurate portrayal of your character right?

And just so you know, they have said that once all the documenation has been released, they may allow players a "do over" in regards to culture choices. So you might get a chance to change it if you like.

Didnt think I would see the day GS became so racist.

Gemstone has always been extremely racist. Read the documentation. The drakes didn't want the mortals to survive. The elves used humans as slaves. Some of the Arkati enslaved elves. Dwarves and elves have an almost inborn distrust of each other. The Faendryl wiped out an entire Elven House and are now shunned by the rest of the Elven Nations. Half-elves are shunned because they are a mix of two races that hate each other.

It's all been there all along.

Why should half elves be singled out for an insult.

Because they are half-elves.

I don't think I've met anyone who is happy with the term.

The term pariah does not give me warm fuzzy feelings whenever I think of it. It's not supposed to. I'm happy that Simu had the guts to put it in the game though and want it to remain.

Does it make sense to railroad those who choose half-elves into playing a pariah? To dismiss such a complaint by saying, "Then don't choose a culture" makes it unfair to those who do want to display a culture for all to see.

Rail, stepping off the soap box.

You aren't being railroaded. The documentation clearly states that some half-elves were brought up in places and ways where they did not have to deal with the rampant racism expressed in the mainstream human and elf cultures. There you go. They left the door wide open for you.

If you want to display a culture, the cultures on the list available are all racist and that is reflected in the label applied to half-elves.

It's totally up to you whether or not your individual half elf was from a racist culture or somewhere else.

Robin